Summary

• Salim's personal experience with grief heavily influenced the game, with elements like health tied to reflection on memories.
• The game aims to create a sense of connection and shared experience for players going through grief.
• Keeping the game price low at $19.99 was intentional to make the experience accessible and fulfilling.

Surgent Studios' Tales of Kenzera: ZAU is a fantastic-feeling Metroidvania that wears its heart on its sleeve. Much of that is due to the studio's (and the game's) lead, Abubakar Salim, who players may recognize as Bayek from Assassin's Creed Origins. He's also become quite a prolific actor, from working on episodes of Black Mirror to starring in Bill Gallagher's Jamestown and Ridley Scott's Raised By Wolves. This year, he'll be appearing as Alyn of Hull in House of the Dragon season 2.

When not on screen, however, Salim has been hard at work as the game director for Tales of Kenzera: ZAU. Recently, Screen Rant got the opportunity to meet with Salim ahead of the worldwide launch of Tales of Kenzera on April 23, 2024, and spoke for roughly 25 minutes about the inspiration behind the game's heavy themes (the death of his father), how being open and honest with who you are as a person is integral to creativity, and why sometimes a good takeaway pizza is all you need.

...this game, at its core, this is about grief.

On Tales of Kenzera Influences

How Grief Informs The Game's Narrative

Screen Rant: First of all, I wanted to say I played the demo for Tales of Kenzera back when it came out during Steam Next Fest, and instantly fell in love with the game. It was just so much fun, and I love how quick the combat is. Now, obviously you've been very open [about the game's influences], and I've also lost my father, about five years ago. And that was, as you know, a very difficult thing to have to go through. And so, the first thing I wanted to ask is, when looking at the game as a whole, which part of it do you feel is most influenced by your father?

Abubakar Salim: Oh, man, we've laced this whole game with it. First of all, I just want to say thank you very much for playing the demo. I'm so grateful that you enjoyed it. I'm really thankful for that. Something that I've been saying a lot is, you know, we're a studio of 30. So every decision counts, and we've tried to lace as much of the elements of mechanics of the story, even to the degree of the music, to that journey of grief.

One thing I'd say is very pure is the reflection moment, you don't really get that in the demo, but you'll get that in the full game, where it's the only way of increasing your health, your max health - because we had to have an element of increasing your health, to survive the treacherous planes of Kenzera. And to me, it just didn't feel right to just have a health pickup or something that you just pick up and kind of move on with your journey.

One thing that I realized actually was, as soon as I started talking about how I felt, talking about where my head was, I almost felt like [I was] adding years to my life, you know what I mean? I felt like I was I was genuinely growing and evolving. And I think that was a journey that I had to go through, in order to come to that sort of conclusion that yeah, actually, by talking about how you feel, by actually actively kind of accepting, like, "Hey, I'm actually not okay today," and being cool with it. That sort of allowed me to kind of come to this feeling of thinking of, yeah, this is actually a really cool game mechanic, the idea of Zau just talking to Death, and essentially saying how he feels, of the memories that he has of his father, and reflecting on that allows him to kind of increase the length of time he's gonna stay on.

You've spoken a lot about your father's own opinions on death, on how he was very straightforward in the matter. When you look at the final product that you've created, is there a part of the game that you would be reluctant to show him? Like, how far you went in the other direction from that?

Salim: I don't think so, man, because I think it's all part and parcel of it, you know? I think with him, and his sense or his idea or an approach to death, or his mentality about it, it was very much of the sense of like, "Hey, man, things are okay, the world continues to move on." Right? And I think that's laced in the game. So I almost think that he'd see that, he'd say "Okay, I can see the struggle and I can see the strife but, I mean, the game is so beautiful, man, there's nothing here about grief." And that's kind of what my experience was like.

I will say this, the biggest sort of shock for me after he ed away was how the world just continued to spin, and how everyone just continued doing their own thing. And it was wild because I was like, "Hang on, I feel like my world is just stopped. Why are my mates waking up tomorrow and still having a good time?" Like, this doesn't mean sense, and I think that's one of the realities of life. And I think that's essentially why the game is so vibrant and so beautiful and so colorful, it's because this is the journey of Zau, the journey of Zuberi. It's not the journey of everyone else in the world. You know what I mean? I think the only thing that probably would stand out is possibly the combat trials. [Laughs] They're hard as hell, he'd probably be like, "Why are you doing this?"

And was that an intentional part of making them? Obviously, for the combat trials, there is a gameplay element to that, but is there another secondary meaning laced in behind the idea of including combat trials?

Salim: The way I kind of look at it is, combat in our game is supposed to represent this sort of balance, this tit for tat, right? This feeling of like a dance, sometimes it's chaotic, sometimes it's sometimes it's quite surgical. So sometimes you've got control of it, sometimes you don't. And you find yourself having to figure out how you just move along with life, you know. There's this beat that is kind of going through [life], and sometimes you're working with the beat, and sometimes you're working against it. What the combat trials sort of serve as are an element of being like, "Actually, I'm going to confront this beat, I'm gonna confront this beast, this obstacle, actively."

I've been very lucky to have a 19-month-old daughter, and I feeling so upset and sad about the idea of her not being able ever to see my father, because my father loved kids, he just had a lot of love to give. And especially, like, my cousins and my nieces, he was a father figure. And so that really stuck with me. I just thinking, you know, "This is what it is, it is what it is." And I found myself being like, "Okay, I really got to talk about this. I gotta face this." I've got to be like, "No, actually, I can actually see my dad in my daughter." And that's kind of cool, you know, even in the way that she frowns, yeah, kinda looks a bit like my dad. This is me essentially being like, "I feel this way. But it's okay. It's totally fine." and so that is what the combat trials sort of represented, this idea of "Okay, I'm here, I'm ready to essentially deal with this thing. I feel like I'm ready, I feel like I'm not, but let's just go for it, let's just try it."

I understand that. For me, I felt like that playing Dark Souls after my father died, that feeling of the same thing over and over and over again. The process of making Tales of Kenzera: ZAU has obviously been very personal for you and for the team. Is the idea that, for other people who are currently experiencing intense grief, they could play this and perhaps it would help them find a way out of it?

Salim: It was moreso a sense of... you know, I found my process, I don't know how you found it, man, but I found it very isolating. I feel like I'm just on this journey myself, when actually grief is a very universal feeling. Everyone will go through it once in a while, in some way, shape, or form, be it either through a pet, a parent, or even a job. And I think what this game is there to be is essentially to say, "You're not alone. It's okay to not be okay." It's not going to heal you in any way. It's just to share with you, "Hey, we're in this all together."

I think the one thing that's really kind of stood out, for me, anyway, is just how many people have come and shared their own experience after announcing the game and what it's about. And there's something really powerful in that because it's like, you know, I've just met you today, man, and you've shared with me something really personal. And we're connected. And I feel like a lot of the time, there's a lack of that, especially online. The internet, man, as much as there's supposed to be a connection to it, there's no connection at all. And so I feel like that's kind of what I really wanted to do with this game. It's to serve as a vehicle of connection to kind of almost celebrate being human in a way, you know?

How To Approach Less Explored Mythology

Introducing Players To New Concepts

I think that does absolutely come across, obviously with the dialogue, but just how everything ties together, the music and the art style, and it creates this very unique package. But it also feels very personal, I think to everybody, because as you say, it is such a universal feeling. When it comes to adding in stuff players haven't really seen nearly enough of - which is a mythology that isn't Norse or Greek - what was the most difficult aspect of making sure that came across and was original but also identifiable?

Salim: So, the identifiable element really comes down to the way we've approached this story. And this game, at its core, this is about grief. And that is a universal feeling. And that's a universal journey that, you know, as I mentioned, everyone will kind of go through in one way or another. That was what was important, the elements of it being the Bantu culture and being very different in that regard, really kind of comes, again, through just me being authentic and honest, in regards to like, these are the stories that my father would share with me. All the stories that I like to be told.

Pulling from that sense of authenticity and honesty is really, truly what I found is the best way of going about it. Not necessarily taking it on my shoulders to educate the world about Bantu culture and myth, it's more of a sense of to celebrate it and have you go out and, you know, go down the wiki wormhole of what an Ubuntu is, you know what I mean? [Author's Note: Abu may have said Mbundu here, or perhaps a third option altogether.]

I think things like God of War, and even Hades, do it so well, where we don't really truly know the full character and story of Hades or who Hades is, or even Zagreus, right? The myths exist, but I don't know exactly who this is. But what the game is doing, it's giving me his perspective, in order for me to go and look and find a bit more interesting elements and stories of what's been told with them.

Same with God of War, right? Their take on Thor, it's very different to Marvel's take on Thor. But ultimately they're telling very human stories. To me, that was the trick, to be as authentic and real as possible. And you kind of get over the hurdle of "Ugh, man, how am I going ensure that this feels original or different?"

It had to be through a Metroidvania.

What would you say was the most unexpected roadblock or hurdle that you came to during the process that you didn't necessarily see was going to be an issue?

Salim: On an emotional level, I'd say it's about being as honest and vulnerable as possible with the team. You know, there is a there is a fear also that if you - again, this is very natural - if I become vulnerable, if I show a sign of weakness, I give myself perhaps too much to the team. So getting over the fact of, actually, I have to be vulnerable, I have to know that maybe I'm not right all the time, that sort of sense was an element of it all.

On an actual, practical level? Trying to build and convey a game of what you think, and the emotions that you want to drive for, and the message that you want to give, with a small team, it's quite hard. [Laughs] Because you're restricted - obviously, you don't want people to bleed for it at all, because that's just inhumane. You still want to deliver an experience that feels honest and truthful, but it's a balancing act.

I think we found that, and as I said, we're a small team so there had to be a reason behind everything. And the idea of pivoting or changing something or adding something bigger can cost us a lot of time, because we just don't have that manpower. But, funnily enough, through that restriction, you find a lot of power in it, because you're like, "Okay, cool. How do you double down on this really cool thing?"

Kind of bouncing off that - you're a small team, but it's a beautiful game. And you said during the preview event not that long ago that it's 10-12 hours long, roughly 15 for completionists. But it's only priced at $19.99, whereas in today's world, if it was made by a different developer, you could see this very easily being at least $39.99, if not more than that. Was keeping the price low something you had in mind from the start?

Salim: Yes, it was always something that I wanted to do. It has to be accessible, because let's not kid here, man, gaming is an expensive hobby. And the way in which games are running around and playing, you're now almost having to be forced as to whether you're gonna get a week shopping or a video game. That's crazy. And so in my head, it was like, "No, I want to make a game that is truly and purely accessible to as many people as possible, but at the same time, it's not going to break bank." That's sort of where my mentality comes from.

It's funny, we had this conversation, where essentially, in my head, it's like, "What's the price of pizza?" Like, a takeaway pizza? You're looking at around like £17.99, or $20. And that's a great experience. Right? [Laughs] Getting that, buying that, you feel great - well, some people feel great eating it, I feel great eating pizza - but you almost feel like, "Hey, this is great for the price of what I'm getting," right? That's the kind of vibe and feeling that I wanted to create with this. It's a creative, fulfilling, great story, cool gameplay, but at a price that point that almost feels like you're stealing from us.

And with that in mind, obviously it's an entire, solid experience, but have you considered anything for DLC or anything in the future for the game like additional updates?

Salim: Oh, always. But the thing is, again, I'm motivated by what feels right rather than necessarily making more money. You know what I mean? In my head, it's about honoring the story, and honoring the experience, and listening to the people, listening to the players. That's part and parcel of it.

The Tales of Kenzera franchise and universe I have a massive plan for, and I want to do multiple games, films, stories - and tell them with that same sort of heart - but with this game specifically I think it all about listening to the players. I mean there's elements of stuff that we wish we added in that final experience, but to be honest, man, the experience as a whole, of what it is, it feels right. It feels strong, you know?

And when you talk about other games and other stories in the Kenzera universe, would that be something where you would want to explore different gameplay styles, or would you want to stick with Metroidvanias but with different characters?

Salim: So the way we approach it is, we figure out the story we want to tell, and we match that to the genre. That's very much the approach that we had with Zau. The theme was grief, you know, it was about exploring the journey of grief, that was the conjuring of this tale. It had to be through a Metroidvania. That's essentially how we would explore other elements, depending on whatever the theme is. If we find the theme, we find that core element, and we find the perfect genre that matches that and build upon it from there.

There's a lot of noise out there.

Kind of an inverse of a question I asked earlier about difficulties, but what idea did you have during development that when you so it come to fruition you were like, "This is better than I ever could have imagined it!"?

Salim: Ah, it's the mask switching. Mask switching combat elements, yeah. Because that stemmed from the idea of the fact that we wear many masks to hide ourselves and we'll just kind of keep going. We wear a professional mask when we're at work and can't tell them our feelings, or what we're actually feeling, and we wear a mask differently with our friends. And so, in my head, I really wanted to represent that through this element of traversal and combat and what have you. And it was in my mind, and I playing it and thinking about it, and then when we actually cracked it, and did it, oh! So good.

The conversation derails momentarily as both people talk about how much they love this one move in Tales of Kenzera: Zau where players can use the Sun mask to knock an opponent into the air, switch to the Moon mask, then use projectiles to juggle the opponent until they are dead. This discussion is then interrupted by a wild toddler who didn't understand why a closed office door should stop her from coming inside and jumping on the nearest dog.

Multimedia Experience As Influences

Gaining Confidence To Tell Stories

Speaking of different masks, obviously you've done work outside of your other work in video games (like Bayek in Assassin's Creed Origins) as well. How was your experience with Raised by Wolves? How did that influence transitioning to games and directing voice actors?

Salim: It gave me the confidence to have my own voice and tell stories. I think the thing that is so awesome about Ridley [Scott] is he's just unapologetically creative, and just an artist. Him casting me, and him saying yes to me, this guy who has seen every actor under the sun - and that's not even exaggeration, because he works so much, he's seen everything and everyone - for him to be like "Yeah, I want you to co-lead on this show," is such a confidence boost, man. It's such a moment of "Yeah, maybe, maybe I am alright at this."

I'd say that process, and seeing that sense of this wild world, this crazy world, it doesn't make sense, but it does at the same time, and it just is what it is, really inspired me to be like, "Yeah, I'm gonna do this. I can get into this." I can do whatever I want, and making a game, that's what I feel ionate about, that's where my ion lies. It's always like, "This is what I'm going to do."

And how was your experience on House of the Dragon season 2, and ing the Game of Thrones world?

Salim: It's been good. [Laughs] It's crazy, it's one of those ones where, again, you jump into this crazy fantastical world, but at the same time, it makes sense. It's been wonderful. Wonderous. I've learned - again, really truly any creative, or anyone within these spaces, these huge universes, the thing that kind of connects them all is just essentially how much they don't apologize for, for who they are or what they are. I think that's what's really awesome about it. It's just good storytelling. The team, from the actors to the writers, it's felt just really magical. They all love what they do, and I think that's really been inspiring for me, to keep doing what I'm doing.

And that seems like something you've taken with you - being unapologetically yourself, and having that be the impetus behind everything.

Salim: Absolutely. At the end of the day, like, truly, you've got to listen to what will make you happy, you know? Especially when it comes to the stories that you want to tell and the people that you want to be around. There's a lot of noise out there. I think that, as long as you separate the ego from that noise and just kind of listen to yourself, it helps, man.

And I think you can see that in the work that's being done - even on House of the Dragon, like, it's a massive moving machine and there's all sorts of business elements about it, but at its core it's about telling a really cool story. And we all just want to be happy. And that was also what I experienced on Raised by Wolves. It's a crazy sci-fi show out there, everyone's like "What the hell is happening?" but at the same time, you're like, "I kind of enjoy this confusion," because you're so confused too. So this is great. I wonder where it's gonna go!